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The Tyranny of Giants
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pisagerr



Joined: 12 Jun 2008
Posts: 144
Location: Texas, U.S.A.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 5:03 am
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I do like elven archer's young giant. I'm all for changing the stats down to base four for most and making base nine elders th elites.
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bluntfang



Joined: 16 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:24 am
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Raj from the other forum threw out a trial list as well based on some of the feed back. Here is a link to the file..... [url]
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Looks good Elven Archer. I think magic can be relaxed a bit, but still looked at very carefully. Some lists, such as the Life, would be a no go in every way.....giving giants access to evasion, easy healing spells, and magical protection of 4 would push them into the nigh unbeatable category.

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timorin37



Joined: 21 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:25 pm
Post subject: Keep Giants Big
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Hello,

I agree with you bluntfang, that Giants look overbalanced at first glance. However, in the six or so game I have played giants, I don’t think that the giants overbalanced the games. However, I have not really used rollers or artillery. Maybe I will try them in my next game and let you know

The following are some of the reasons; I do not think Giants are overbalanced.

1. A Strength of four is not a great advantage - Several of my games were against lizard men, Demons and Barbarians. The high giant strength had no affect on any of these games. Giants pay a significant number of points for a high STR that is useless against many armies. In addition, most troops don’t require a strength of four to negate armor. Strength of two or three is enough to negate the armor of most troops. Basic giants could have their Strength reduced to three without any effect on game balance.

2. Giant normal shooting is almost useless – Giants pay a lot for shooting that in my experience is almost useless. Giants usually do not do enough damage with shooting to even cause a moral check. At the cost of a Young Giant, you just cannot purchase enough shooting to do significant damage. Shooting could be removed from all giants. “Rock Hurler” giants should be an option that could be purchased if you want your giants to have rocks.

3. Negate First Strike from Long Weapons is virtual useless for giant. Very rarely does even a Young Giant die in the first round of combat. Giants high wounds means that they usually last a round or two in combat before one dies. Therefore, giants pay a premium for an ability that rarely comes into play. This ability could be taken away from giants without affecting game play. In fact, most of my giants die to hero’s with first strike as a result, Giants could even be given “last strike” and it would really not affect game play.

4. Multi Wounding units hits kill giants very affectively – Artillery, Hero’s, Monsters and anything else that does dxWounds is a giant killer.

5. More than three giants means a plus 1 to hit with missile weapons. This only really comes into play in larger games. However, this combined with the multi-wounds from artillery really wrecks giants.

6. Fewer Models is a big disadvantage – The Moral bonus of a group of giants will not be the same for unit of most other armies with the same point cost. Giants also have to make moral checks if even one model dies. In addition, Giants are no longer in “rank and file” format when you only have one model left. Fearless is great, but still you have to take wounds if you fail a moral check.

7. Limited Unit selection – Having fewer units to select from is a big disadvantage. Giants don’t really have any specialty troop selection like other armies. In addition, the high cost of units means that more points are wasted. Making a giant army that is exactly x points is not easy.

8. Giants don’t have many normal attacks – Giants do great damage against large units with sweep. However, monsters or hero’s are great against giants because giants don’t have many normal attacks.

9. Only General Magic – You have already covered this disadvantage. However, magic is very powerful in AoA and only having access to basic magic is a big disadvantage.

I agree with Warhound, Giants are a different an interesting army right now. If you take away giants as a troop choices what is the point of having a giant king army. You can just take any other army and add Giants as Elites.

However, If you want to keep a Young Giant as a troop choice you could make a basic giant troop by lowering STR to 3, removing missile weapons, removing avoid first strike and possibly even giving the giant last strike and keep all the other stats the same. This gives you a Giant Trooper that costs 100.5 point or 72 with last strike.

Name Giant Trooper
Type Troop
Base 9
Elite No
Total VP Cost 100.5
Move 8", No Special
Wounds 6
Armour Armor 3 Not Fixed; Missile +2, Evasion (0)
Magic Resistance 2
Elemental Abilities None
Morale 8, Fearless
Melee Attacks
(1st Set) 2/3, Strength (3), 1d3 Wnds
Melee Attacks
(2nd Set) Use Primary Attack OR: 10/3, Strength (3), Sweep
Special Base 9

Name Giant Trooper w/Last Strike
Type Troop
Base 9
Elite No
Total VP Cost 72
Move 8", No Special
Wounds 6
Armor Armor 3 Not Fixed; Missile +2, Evasion (0)
Magic Resistance 2
Elemental Abilities None
Morale 8, Fearless
Melee Attacks
(1st Set) 2/3, Strength (3), Last Strike, 1d3 Wnds
Melee Attacks
(2nd Set) Use Primary Attack OR: 10/3, Strength (3), Last Strike, Sweep
Special Base 9

Regards,
Timorin37
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magokiron



Joined: 15 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:32 pm
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IRRC giant kings don't pay ANYTHING for the "negate first strike by long weapons".

And fearless is by far a very powerful ability for high wounds creatures that came from your "normal" troop allowance.

I won't even dream in giving last strike to giants! Are you kidding?

People are complaining about golems with only 2 attacks and last strike to be overly effective. And you want make giants 30 points cheaper? C'mon.

Ok. I may not have a great experience with giant kings (only faced them once) but They really seem broken to me.

But that is only my opinion.

Best wishes.

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Khazadson



Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 156
Location: Sydney

PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:41 pm
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I see where you are coming from, but at the same time some of your points are not strong.

Quote:
Giants also have to make moral checks if even one model dies


True, but at the same time many units would be forced to take a morale check after losing that many wounds. Up until you lose that first model, your combat effectiveness and morale bonus is not affected at all, whereas it is in other armies.

Also some of your points are addressed by the new ideas people have presented. Have you looked at Raj's file? I should post his summary, but I am pressed for time, maybe tonight.
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timorin37



Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:24 pm
Post subject: Keep Giants in the Giant King Army
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Unfortunately, I was unable to download Raj’s suggested list. The Web URL is invalid. Can someone post a valid URL to the list.

One of the biggest reasons, I started playing AoA was because you could play elite armies like Giant Kings. I like elite armies of smaller troops. Unfortunately, in most war games Warhammer, 40K, War Machine and even AoA hoard armies are statistically the best armies to play. However, I like faster games and refuse to play a game where it takes over fifteen minutes just to deploy troops.

It would be a shame to change Giant Kings and make them just like the other AOA armies. If Giant Kings are going to change, I would recommend a few minor changes to address concerns like Artillery and Rollers not sweeping changes like making all giants elite.

Regards,
Timmorin37
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Zinkala



Joined: 13 Jun 2008
Posts: 473

PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 11:17 pm
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Timorin, try this link out
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I just found and downloaded the list from there.

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Khazadson



Joined: 04 Jul 2008
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Location: Sydney

PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 12:26 am
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Here is the summary that Raj wrote for his version. It gives you and idea of what his thought process was when he came up with it.

Quote:
1 - Bulk of army is slightly slower as the non-elite giants now move only 7" as they've got shorter legs. This could in theory be reduced to 6", making the army a slower than average army (no cavalry).

2 - The non-elite giants, which will form the bulk of the army, have only skill 2 sweep attacks. Therefore, troops with evasion should give them a hard time as they would be hitting on 1's only. Troops like feral elves, Ratmen master warriors and such should be tough for them to deal with.

3 - The non-elite giants are limitted to missile saves of 4, rather than 5. That way shooting should be more effective than it was in the past.

4 - The non-elite giants now either have sweep attacks or missile attacks and not both. That should force the giant player to have to choose which to take in his army rather than just have an army list of shooting troops who are also deadly in melee.

5 - The rollers, ballista and rock lobber units are now elite giants with those particular abilities. They aren't cheap add-ons to existing uniits.

6 - The non-elite giants are no longer fearless. This should allow the main bulk of the army to be broken and run down in melee and also run away from concentrated shooting.

The other units such as the tribal giants are there to add some flavour. A quick summary of them as follows:

Mountain Giants - Rocky skin so have fixed armour, very slow lumbering creatures so more wounds but have the slow ability. They don't use big clubs to sweep their enemies but instead just rely on their heavy fists. No sweeps but their 2 normal melee attacks do 2d3 wounds. Good against monsters but feeble against ranked infantry.

Sky Giants - Faster giants that are immune to lightning and air magic. They fight by hurling lightning from their hands rather like the Titan. They have a medium range missile attack and an area effect melee attack, both of which are eldritch. Good against low magic save units, not as good against monsters and characters with high magic save.

Ice Giants - These giants are surrounded by an icy mist that freezes their enemies and allows them to strike first in melee. Their attacks are also magical. They are immune to ice / water magic but are vulnerable to fire damage. They don't use clubs or anything and therefore don't have a sweep attack.

Fire Giants - These guys are immune to fire but vulnerable to ice / water attacks. In melee their fists erupt in fire and allow them to do fire damage. They don't use clubs and so don't make sweep attacks ... however, they can breath fire.

Forest Giants - These are covered in wooden armour and receive a higher missile save and melee save. They are unusual in that they carry a tree trunk in each hand and fight with nothing but sweep attacks. This makes them great against infantry but rather weak against other large monsters.

Other tweaks to the list include a slight boost in stats for Elder giants to differentiate them from the other giants. They are also more expensive obviously.

The list now has more weaknesses, but is also able to field many more giants so it could still be very strong or even broken. However, it does at least follow the CCF rules now in terms of normal and elite allocation.


My main complaint is that it is still filled with expensive troops. I would like to see a few of them drop by maybe 10 points and to add cyclops and/or ogres. That is a personal preference though.

At any rate I think Raj is spot on with his thinking at the very least. Removing fearless from core troops, only having sweep OR missiles et cetera. These are the sorts of things that mean you need to make tactical choices when making your army, which I think is a very key issue. At the same time of course, they can cut costs on things you might not have used anyway, making them even more powerful.

So it is once again a matter of testing Smile
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timorin37



Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:11 am
Post subject: Save the Giants
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Hello,

Thanks for the link; I was able to download the new list. I will review the list and give some thought to what game effects all the changes would make and how the new giants would work in an army. While waiting for the list, I went ahead and made up a variant list.
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My concept was a little different instead of adding a lot of other giants I put the other Giant Kin monsters that are already in the AoA game into the Giant King list. These monsters have already been play tested and should be relatively balanced.

The list has the following changes.
1. Other Giant Kin have been added as troop choices.
2. Young Giant are now the only Giant troop choice at 95 points.
3. All giants but the Young Giant are now Characters so must be purchased from elite points.
4. Giants no longer negate first strike.
5. Purchasing Special Equipment now make the giant VP cost elite.
6. Rocks are now a piece of Normal Equipment that Giants can buy.

I left the fractional VP because I was not sure if I should round or drop fractions. Please let me know if I did any of the calculations incorrectly.

Maybe this list would address some of the existing problems with Giant Kings but still leave giants a viable army.

In one major way, this new list makes Giant Kings more powerful. Giant King Players no longer have to pay for the almost useless abilities of Rocks and Negate first strike. These abilities cost 61.5 points on even a Young Giant. This makes all Giants far more effective for their point cost.

However, the Giant Kings sill have the following disadvantages; no Calvary, No long weapon troops, no base 4 or smaller hero’s, no first striking weapons, no effective missile troops, weak Magic, and no cheap hoard troops.

Regards,
Timorin37
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Khazadson



Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 156
Location: Sydney

PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:30 am
Post subject: Re: Save the Giants
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Well I like your list too. It is much more my style, in that it is a pretty down to earth style list and allows a lot of cool tactics.

timorin37 wrote:

However, the Giant Kings sill have the following disadvantages; no Calvary, No long weapon troops, no base 4 or smaller hero’s, no first striking weapons, no effective missile troops, weak Magic, and no cheap hoard troops.


I will add some comments about these "disadvantages" though. None of them are all that bad.

The one that stands out the most for me is the "no long weapons". This army has an abundance of sweep attacks which are excellent value, better value imo than long weapons in many situations.

First striking weapons beyong long weapons are pretty rare anyway, so this isn't much of a disadvantage. On top of that the toughness of your troops means that first strike looses a lot of its effeftiveness against this army (strike up another advantage).

The no cav thing is an issue, but at the same time other armies with this problem (wolfen) don't have the toughness to deal with missile attacks, or the heavy hitting when they get into combat.

In fact the only real disadvantage I would give to that list is the lack of real magic (and perhaps the lack of base 4 characters).


Still it does seem to be a good list and I probably prefer it to Raj's, simply because he has added a little bit of everything into the army and hasn't made anything cheap. Hopefully people will try out this list and Raj's and see how they go? I don't think anyone I know is particularly interested in giants.
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timorin37



Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:45 pm
Post subject: Big is not Necessary Better
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Hello,

Khazadson thanks for your comments. Giants were my first AoA army so even though I now play a different army, the big guys are still near and dear to my heart.

I looked over Raj’s Giant list and the list looks interesting with a wide variety of new Giant types. As a result, I tried to build some armies using the new Giant List. We usually play 3000-point games and I use a simple spreadsheet to make sure that Elite Points and Max Unit size is not violated for any unit.

The first thing that I noticed is that none of the Giant troops have fearless. So like most other armies I naturally added a hero into the troops to up moral.

However, Raj’s Giant list only has two hero choices. Most of the time I would not want the wizard in the front line for various reasons, so I would want to put a Chieftain in each unit. However, in a 3000 point game the Max unit size is 600 points. So, after purchasing a Chieftain I only had 176 points available for troops.

In my view, lists with mostly non fearless troops should have access to moral 10 hero in the 120-220 range. This allows heros to be put in the other troops to make effective units. As a result, I would recommend adding some more and cheaper hero’s.

The next thing that I noticed is that Scarred Giant, Blooded Giant, Elder Giants are now elite. However, the units still have the virtually useless abilities of Negate Long Weapon and Rocks. In my view, Giants were a good value for normal troops. However for elites there are much better monster choices that could be purchase for the point cost. Even the normal Giant from the monster list is a better value because he does not pay for negates long weapons. As a result, I am not sure how often players would field these elite troops at their current point cost. These units should at least be converted to Hero’s.

The third thing, I noticed was that some of the point totals seem to be off based on the CCF that I currently have. For example when I calculated the Unscarred Giant with Club I got a total of 82.3 Points instead of 91. Does anyone have a link to the latest CCF?

The fourth thing I noticed is many of the giant troops primary weapon skills and sweep weapon skills are two. In my view, A skill of two is too low for an 80+ point unit. I looked through the other creatures and could not find another 80+ point creature that did not an attack with a skill of 3+. Even the Ogre at 34 points has a skill of 2/3.

After an initial look at the list, I started looking over the individual troops.

Flesh-starved Giant – I would field the max unit size of 6 troops of Flesh-starved Giants. At 6 Giants the unit no longer has to make a moral check if one giant is lost. In addition, the moral bonus is better because of more units. The unit would be at a +1 to hit against missile attacks, but this is balanced because the unit can absorb more wounds. The unit would get 60 Ram attacks in the first round of combat. 60 Ram attacks is a lot for a 522 point non elite unit. In addition, a base 9 unit with 30 wounds can most likely overrun any unit in the game at this point total. Overrunning combined with lots of Ramming attacks could be a very powerful combination.

I would have to spend some time think about the balance of the other new units to give feedback on each of the units. However, these are initial thoughts on Raj’s list.

Regards,
Timmorin37
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Zinkala



Joined: 13 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:24 pm
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Timorin, here's a link to the latest CCF calculator I have.
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You should post your thoughts about the list on the other forum as well for the people that don't look here.

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timorin37



Joined: 21 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 5:24 pm
Post subject: Giants Rock
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Ok, I will post my new army list and all my thoughts on the other forum. Having two forums to discuss the same topic is somewhat ridiculous.

Timorin37
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timorin37



Joined: 21 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:21 am
Post subject: Here there be Giants
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For what it’s worth, I finished my alternate Giant list. I added a rule to try to prevent overrun. In this alternate list, this is now the only special rule that giants now have.

I tried to collect all the information from both forums and use this information in the creation of this alternate Giant list. As a result, this alternate list will probably not make either giant players or non-giant players happy.

I uploaded the updated list and the entire corresponding zip file that contains all the Word and Excel files to the following location.
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I modified some of the formatting and concatenation functions on the Excel CCF Creation Summary sheet to make output more readable. However, none of the formulas used in the CCF point calculations were modified. I also included a sample spreadsheet where I tried to build some armies using the new army list.
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Tanker



Joined: 12 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:39 pm
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Timorin's point about the 60 ram attacks and overrun should not be overlooked. 600 points of elites at 3000 and 4 of those units with some garbage thrown in and that army is death to pretty much everyone who can't magic them to death quickly enough.

Think about it, in skirmish formation the plus one to hit from shooting won't apply AND they get their ram attacks if they get charged from any direction. They won't need to be in RAF with that many rams.

The only units that would truly be effective besides massed shooting, which would still only take out a unit or so before they smashed you into bits would be flyers (rams don't affect them) or multi-wound, multi-attack with fixed armor in skirmish formation (to halve ram hits).

Both flyers and multi wound elite infantry ar already under discussion in other threads for the issues they create. This would only encourage more of those units.

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